The Gibson ES-335

You love ’em or you hate ’em. Nylon saddles made their debut in 1962 on the no wire ABR-1. Most folks think they showed up in 63 on wire type ABR-1’s. The idea was, I believe, to make Bigsby equipped guitars stay in tune better since the strings slid smoothly across the nylon rather than getting hung up on the metal saddles.

I recently did a post about pickup misconceptions and I got a rather large response. Most of you felt like you had been duped for decades by sellers who didn’t know their stuff. Thus, there are lots of 65 ES-335’s with their “original” T-tops. Again…no T-tops in 1965. But there are other persistent bits of “conventional wisdom” that eat away at the true timeline for Gibson parts. I’m sure Fender parts undergo the same revisionist history but I’ll leave that to the Fender guys.

The one that is perhaps more pervasive than even the T-top start date is the introduction of the wire type ABR-1 and the nylon saddle ABR-1. It’s not a chicken or the egg thing either. It’s pretty clear. As usual, at Gibson, new features and parts were introduced over a period of time. The new part didn’t simply show up on the day they ran out of the old ones and in the “waste not want not” philosophy of the folks at Gibson, everything got used up one way or another. The no wire bridge was a stock part on ES-335’s until 1963. Yes. 63. Not 62. Not 61. And yet, I keep seeing wire ABR-1’s for sale from 1961 and 62. Funny, I don’t see no wire ABR-1’s dated 1963. I wonder why that is? Is it because just about everybody’s greedy and wants to get the most that they can for their sale item (older is usually more valuable). And you fool a lot of people and the wrong parts end up on that “all original” 1962 with a wire type bridge. There are wire bridges and no wire bridges in 63 but not in 62. Of course, I’ve seen them on a 62 but a lot of folks swapped out the flawed no wire for a wire type to keep from losing saddles during a gig (and nobody carries around extra saddles in the case). Or they were led to believe a wire bridge was correct for a 62.

Then there are the saddles. Ever seen a 62 with nylon saddles on a no wire base? I’ve seen plenty of them. The nylon saddles predate the wire bridge. The original idea was (I think) to help keep Bigsby or Maestro equipped guitars in tune. The strings slide easily through the nylon saddles whereas they can get hung up on the metal ones and slip out of tune. Gibson tried a few solutions for this problem. They tried to shave the bottom of the bridge into a “rocker” which sort of worked. They tried domed thumbwheels which didn’t work. But nylon, as far as I can tell, showed up in 62. I think they were on Bigsby (or sideways) equipped 62’s first and then, in 63, they went to all nylon. They also phased in the wire type base in 63. You will definitely find either base on a 63 and there’s a chance you’ll get metal saddles but I’m pretty sure those were swapped in.

I’ve got room for one more and it applies to Les Pauls as well as ES guitars. In 1960 (but not at the beginning of the year) a bunch of changes were made. They were mostly cosmetic but over the years have made a tremendous difference in the value of 1960 guitars, especially when compared to 1959 guitars. Recently, anything Gibson from 1959 has received a kind of revered status. The conventional wisdom is that 59 is the absolute pinnacle of guitar building at Gibson. Because changes weren’t made by the calendar (like automobiles), it can be tricky to figure out what guitars are 59’s and what guitars are 60’s. I use the serial number but when someone really wants a 59 and can’t afford it, the line between 59 and 60 gets, at best, blurred. At worst, it gets erased. There are three things that happened-probably sometime around the Spring of 60. The tuners went from single ring tips to double ring. The knobs went from bonnet to reflector. The big change was the neck profile. It had already gone from big and chunky to something more medium in the Fall of 59 and that profile continued well into 1960. It’s easy to swap in bonnet knobs and single ring tuners to make your 60 seem to be a 59 build (yes, you can always check the FON). But I’ve started seeing very slim necks (which occurred somewhere around April) with 59 features. I don’t have a handle on when all these changes occurred because so many guitars have been “upgraded” to 59 spec.

Les Pauls have gotten this treatment way more than ES’s. A 59 burst is worth a whole lot more than a 60. Then somebody came up with a catchy term for the early 60 bursts that still had the big neck. Those are identified by the “double 0” serial number- for example 0 0125. A “double 0” gets treated like a 59 lately and that makes sense. We are all too hung up on numbers. I’ll say it for the zillionth time…guitars didn’t have “model years” back then. There were never newspaper or magazine ads that said “come and see the new 1960 Gibson line of guitars”. A new model might be touted but a new model year was not. Because we are so hung up on the numbers, we designate model years. Maybe we should pay more attention to the features we want and ignore the numbers. I’ve found some killer 60 335’s that are every bit as good as 59’s (and have all the “right” features.

There are a few more of these myths out there and I’ll get to those down the road. It’s not an exact science by any means. I’m going from strict observation. When I get a mint example that’s had just one owner, I can make assumptions about originality that I can’t make on a ten owner beater. It helps that I’ve seen so many and there are, of course, exceptions to any parts timeline I might come up with.

This is an excellent example of a 60 that is kind of a 59 that is kind of a 58. This is serial number A32612. That’s pretty early in 1960 but I’ve found two others like this-one has a much later serial-A33765 which is August 1960. What’s so unusual? Big fat 59 neck. All 59 features and a 58 FON. Call it a 58? Call it a 59? Call it a 60. I called it a 60 when I sold it but nothing about it said 60. Of course, I mentioned the 58 FON in the listing but folks still wouldn’t pay a 59 price for it. Why? Because it’s not a 59.

This happens more often than we’d like but properly repaired, a headstock break can make a perfectly good player at a reasonable price. The tricky part is knowing how well it has been repaired. Take it to your luthier and get his opinion before your approval period runs out.

Nothing will send your buyer rushing for the exits faster than a neck issue. It almost doesn’t matter which neck issue it is (and there are lots of them), you can bet it’s going to impact the price. But neck issues come in many flavors. Some might drop a few hundred off the price while a major headstock break, poorly repaired or not repaired at all, will knock 40% to 60% off the value. The problem is figuring out how fixable it is and how much will it affect the playability, the investment value and the ease of selling when it’s time.

HEADSTOCK BREAK

I’m not a luthier so figuring out how fixable a neck issue is going to come from my own experiences with old guitars. Any luthier who is reading this is welcome to disagree and help us all understand the problem better. Let’s start with what most folks think is the biggest dealbreaker…a headstock break. Properly repaired, it can be stable and never be a problem going forward. The problem is how do you know how well repaired it is? Ask how long it has been since the repair. Play the guitar and pay attention to intonation and play issues like string buzz or high action. A well repaired, stable headstock break can take 40% or more off the price and you can end up with a wonderful guitar that plays and sounds as good as a museum piece. But you can bet that it won’t be easy to sell when it’s time to do so. It might appreciate at the same rate as a collector grade guitar but if you can’t sell it, it doesn’t matter how much it appreciates.

The bottom diagram (from the Fender site) shows a backbow. They call it a convex bow and it’s a very common issue.

BACKBOW

This is much harder to quantify and my experience will be the driving force here. Backbows aren’t hard to fix but they don’t always stay fixed. They also don’t always show. I know of a few ways to fix a backbow when there’s no more to be done with the truss rod (when it’s all the way loose). Heat treating, compression re-frets (look it up) and shaving the fingerboard can make a back bow go away. The problem is how long the repair is going to last. Let’s say you are listing your guitar for sale and the neck is perfect (or close to it). Are you going to disclose that it once had a problem? Probably not (especially if you don’t know). The problem is that wood isn’t predictable. Shaving the neck is almost always visible and is an effective way to compensate for a backbow. It’s expensive but it works.

Heat treating can fix it but it doesn’t always stay fixed and that is a big problem. Read this again…wood isn’t predictable. It might be perfect the day you get it back from the luthier but it could come back at any time. You paid for a no neck issue guitar but you’re getting one that is prone to neck issues. Slim necks are more likely to have a backbow but there is no foolproof way to know whether it has been properly addressed. There is no visible evidence that there has been a problem but it’s a potential time bomb.

Compression re-fretting is when you refret using larger fret tangs which force the neck to bow inward, compensating for the backbow. I’ve had this done and it worked. It might be worth trying this before you go for planing the board but it’s an awfully expensive experiment. If it doesn’t work, you are out the cost of a re-fret (I’ve been paying $800-$1000 lately for refrets on bound necks). I think it’s another time bomb.

TRUSS ROD CRACK

See that little vertical line that is lighter than the rest of the neck. The seller is going to call it a scratch or a capo mark and it could be that but it usually isn’t especially if the guitar has a very slim neck profile. It can be two inches long or 14″ long. Look closely (with a magnifier or loup) and you’ll see that the finish has jagged edges where the crack is. It’s fixable but not always disclosed.

ES Guitars with a slim neck (from front to back) are prone to what I refer to as a truss rod crack. It is usually down the middle of the back of the neck between the third fret and some fret down the fingerboard-could be the fifth or any other fret all the way to the 14th. That can be a 2″ crack or a 12″ crack. It is the result of too little wood between the truss rod and the back of the neck and too much pressure on the neck caused by tightening the truss rod. Late 60 to mid 62 ES guitars are most likely to have this issue and it’s very common. Folks will call it a scratch, a check or any number of other things because the word “crack” sends the buyers fleeing. It’s a crack. Period. The good news is that it isn’t structural. Once the problem is addressed by loosening the truss rod, the crack won’t get any worse. I have had my luthier glue it (making sure not to glue the truss rod at the same time) and it seems to stay fixed as long as pressure is kept to a minimum. That means you may not be able to get the backbow to go away without cracking it again. I haven’t had that happen and I’ve had this repair done at least a dozen times. It’s going to affect the value of the guitar and it has to be disclosed. This is something most folks didn’t know about until I started bringing it up on a fairly regular basis. I never used to see it disclosed (it’s a scratch…) but now I see it frequently (thanks for reading my stuff). It will knock a few thousand off the value depending on how long the crack is but I have found it to be something you can live with.

There are other neck issues like twists, warping, humps and dips because-I’ll say it again-wood isn’t predictable. Most are addressed by shaving the fingerboard and will affect the value of the guitar. So, strike a balance between your budget and your tolerance for issues. Any neck issue is going to affect the value and the ease of selling when it’s time to sell. The key is knowing the extent of the problem and the manner of repair. I will make one further point…I avoid guitars with neck issues most of the time. As a dealer, I don’t want to sell a guitar with a problem I can’t see or a guitar that is going to be trouble in a year or two.

This is a real PAF sticker (decal). Note the font, the spacing and the filled open areas in the letter A. Sometimes the P and the R are filled as well. Most fakes don’t have this feature and the spacing is wrong. It should glow solid green under black light. If it doesn’t, it’s a fake.

The real misinformation begins when Gibson decided (finally) to put the patent number on the sticker. Sidebar: It’s not even the real patent number assigned by the US Patent Office. The number on your patent number pickups (2,737,842) is actually the number for the original Les Paul trapeze tailpiece. But I digress…

I don’t know the exact date that Gibson moved from the PAF to the patent number pickup but it was a very slow transition. They used pickups with the PAF sticker, patent number sticker and no sticker at all from early 62 to 64. PAFs, especially gold cover versions, can be found in 65 and some claim they’ve seen them as late as 67. I’ve never seen any later than 65. I’ve never seen a patent number on a 61. I’ve seen pickups that are missing their stickers in every year from 58 onward. Some fall off and some were never put on. A missing sticker tells us nothing. That brings up our first bit of misinformation. Gibson did NOT change the pickup when they changed the sticker (I know, it’s a decal). An early patent is identical to a late PAF. It’s also identical to any unstickered Gibson pickup with original enamel coated windings and correct string spacing.

Enamel coated windings on a PAF or an early patent number pickup. The later patents and the T-tops will have bright orange windings. This photo is from the Throbak site.

Let’s take the no sticker version first. The first problem is that many boutique (and Gibsons own) PAF reissues are nearly identical to the original PAFs. They have gotten the tooling marks correct, the pole screws are pretty close (and easy to swap out). In fact the only feature of an original PAF that is unmistakeable is the sticker. I’m not going to go through all the things to look for to authenticate a PAF sticker here (I’ve done plenty of posts about that). The repro stickers don’t black light correctly. They should shine bright green and with a consistent, flat glow. The most recent trick is to spray a good repro sticker with invisible phosphorescent paint. But most paints of that sort glow more blue than green and tend to look uneven.

The most reliable way to tell if a PAF (or patent) sticker is real or fake is to black light it. A real sticker will glow green and flat. A fake either won’t glow at all or will glow blue and the shine will be wavy or inconsistent

The patent sticker pickup is tricky because lots of changes were made over the years but the outward appearance did not. If the pickup has a nickel cover and has never been opened, you almost certainly have an early (purple to brownish enamel coated winding) patent number pickup. Same as a PAF. If the cover is gold, it’s a lot harder to know what you have without removing the cover. I’ll cover chrome covers later. In early 65, Gibson changed to poly coated windings and the tone changed. Not by a lot but enough to notice. Also, the pickups became much more consistent due to the use of an automated stop. I’m not sure exactly when this happened but I’ve seen enough poly winding pickups to know that they are pretty inconsistent when it comes to DCR (the ohms reading everybody posts). It may have been as late as the first T-tops when the auto stop mechanism was used as T-tops are almost always in the 7.5K range.

That brings me to the big misinformation surrounding the t-top. For some reason, guitar folks have it in their collective head that t-tops were introduced in 1965. In fact, just about any time a T-top is advertised for sale, the seller calls it a 65 or a 65-69 or some variation of that. I have owned many 65-69 ES-3×5’s and the earliest t-top I’ve seen is 68. In fact most 68’s still have the enamel winding patent number. T-tops are extremely common-Gibson made a lot of guitars during that era and T-tops can show up anywhere a pickup change was made. Back in the day when nobody cared about PAFs, a humbucker was a humbucker and when your PAF crapped out, your local dealer would drop in whatever he had in stock which, if it was 1968 or later, would be a T-top. A good way to ascertain what pickup you have if the cover is chrome but you don’t know what year guitar it came out of is to look at the bobbin screws (the four on the bottom). If they are flat head, it’s likely a T-top. If Phillips, it could be either a late patent (ornage windings) or a T-top although it’s more likely to be a late patent. You can always remove the cover if you aren’t certain but that diminishes the value.

Even if there is no sticker, slotted bobbin screws like the pickup on the left, almost always indicate a T-top. It’s not 100% but it’s close.

The whole pickup thing is a bit of a futile exercise since there are great PAFs and lousy PAFs. There are also great patents and lousy patents (of all types). They seem to get more consistent as they move forward in time. T-tops are very consistent but almost everyone agrees that most PAFs sound bigger, fatter and more articulate than T-tops. I should make the point that you should use your ears and not your eyes when deciding what pickup to use. That said, use your eyes to determine what it’s worth. My personal player is a 59 ES-345 converted to 335 spec. I change pickups all the time. Currently, there is a zebra long magnet PAF with no sticker in the neck and a Throbak in the bridge. It sounds absolutely great even with a lousy player like me. It will never be a collector piece (two filled holes in the top and other issues) but I’ll put it up against just about anything. I had a white PAF in the bridge for a long time but when I needed that for another guitar, I switched to the Throbak and it sounded nearly identical.

Use your ears when assessing a pickup. This is my personal player. It’s had dozens of pickups in it over the years. I have switched the zebra to the neck and the Throbak to the bridge since the photo was taken. Most folks put the higher DCR pickup in the bridge. I tend to do the opposite. That’s another post, however.

Here’s a 57 PAF. No sticker (and no sign that there ever was one). Also note the bobbin screws (the four Phillips screws) are steel. They were brass later but went back and forth a few times so it’s not a very reliable method of dating.

I’m sure I’ve covered all of this before but I see so many errors in listings for Gibson guitars that I’m compelled to try to clarify this issue once and for all. Well, twice or three times for all. It’s about pickups. Since I deal in vintage, we’ll only cover Gibson humbuckers from 1957 until 1985. There are quite a few iterations in that time span. Everyone pretty much agrees what these different pickups are but a lot of folks don’t have the timeline right. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a t-top listed as being from 1965. I know everybody chooses the earliest possible year when listing parts and entire guitars. Like when there is a re-used serial number seen in 65, 66, 68 and 69. It always seems to be listed as a 65, right? But we’re going to talk about the timeline for pickups only here. My facts are based completely on observation. I’ve owned over 600 Gibson guitars equipped with humbuckers and while the majority of them are from 58 to 64, I’ve gone through plenty of them from 66 to 82 so i think I have more credibility than most folks.

The very first Gibson humbucker was introduced in 1956. It had no sticker (decal), enamel coated 42 gauge copper windings and it had a stainless steel cover. These early PAFs (patent applied for) pickups were used on pedal steels (and had 8 string poles). Six string PAFs were being installed on electric Spanish guitars (ES) and Les Pauls by 1957. The early 57’s had no sticker and stainless steel covers. For reasons lost to history, they switched to nickel plated covers during 57-probably fairly early in the year since I see a lot more stickered PAFs in 57 than I do unstickered. Same goes for nickel covers vs stainless. These were long magnet (2.5″ usually A2, A3 or A4 although I can’t tell the difference). Some say A5 might have been used as well-like I said, I can’t tell the difference. There were also gold plated covers for the higher end guitars but the pickups were the same. There were no changes to PAFs in 58.

In 1959, there was an apparent shortage of black plastic-the type used in the bobbins and white was substituted. You’ll find PAFs with one black bobbin and one white bobbin-the slug coil is almost always the white one. We call these zebras. There are also “reverse” zebras where the screw coil is the white one. These are really rare-I’ve seen perhaps 8 of them in the last 30 years. Then there are double whites which, of course, have two white bobbins. Double black bobbins are the most common type in 1959 as well. It seems that certain guitars are more likely to have gotten the white bobbins than others. ES-355’s seem to have a higher percentage than other guitars. Les Paul Standards seem to have gotten them frequently as well but so many were swapped in because folks love the look of exposed double whites in a LP.

Ooh baby…a 1959 ES-335 with a pair of reverse zebras. This is the only one I’ve had with a pair of reverse zebras. And yes, I left the covers off. They were way too cool to hide. Let’s see, I’ve owned somewhere around 1500 PAFs over the last 30 years. Only 8 have been reverse zebras.

1960 also saw no changes to the PAF. There are still double whites and zebras to be found throughout 1960 but they get rarer as the year goes on. By late 60, they are just about gone. I did have a 61 355 with double whites though. The magnets are still long A2 and A3. The covers are still nickel or gold. The windings are still enamel coated 42 gauge copper. In 1961, Gibson switched from a 2.5″ A2, A3 or A4 magnet to a 2.35″ A5. The A5 is a stronger magnet so to keep the level of force the same, a shorter magnet was used. Long magnets seem to be more desirable but I’m not sure why. The short magnet PAFs are incredibly consistent and almost always great sounding pickups. I’ve had some not so great sounding PAFs over the years (not many) but I’ve never had a bad sounding short magnet PAF. I always tell people that the best sounding long magnet PAF will sound better (and better is a really subjective term) that the best short magnet PAF. But the average short magnet PAF will sound as good or better than an average long magnet PAF. I’m not totally certain exactly when the change occurred. It seems to be around mid 61. I don’t crack open sealed pickups to check the magnet so it’s largely guesswork.

Short PAF magnet and long PAF magnet. Shorts were usually A5. Long was usually A2

PAFs continued unchanged until the end of their run. The last PAFs seem to have been used up by 1965 (and these would be gold ones). I hear stories about PAFs found as late as 67 but I’ve never seen one past early 1965 (on an ES-355). That brings us to what is perhaps the biggest misunderstanding of all of them…the early patent number pickup. I’ll cover these and all those that followed in the next post.

Here’s a very attractive and very early (January) 1960 ES-335. It is 100% identical to a December 1959 ES-335 but would likely be priced many thousands less simply because it is a 60 and not a 59.

In addition to the dozens of ES guitars I acquire and sell every year, there are a few other models I seek out and sometimes buy. Regular readers know how much I like the early Epiphones (1959-64) and Fender Esquires. I buy reverse Firebirds, Telecasters, Strats and even the occasional Les Paul. My previous post was about the year 1959 and how the vintage guitar market has come to embrace that year as the absolute pinnacle of quality and tone (at Gibson anyway). I also pointed out that guitars don’t have “model years”. Gibson (and others) made changes to their models when the changes were needed whether to address an issue like neck angle problems or to lower the production costs like the switch from stop tail to trapeze in 65. These changes didn’t happen on January 1 of the given year.

I prefer to date a guitar using the serial number. Many feel that the factory order number (on hollow body Gibsons) is more accurate. But the FON only tells us when the guitars’ assembly was started. I’ve had three 1960 ES-335’s with a 58 FON. Are they 60 or 58? I call them 60. Argue the point with me if you like. That brings me to a very interesting phenomenon among Les Paul aficionadoes. They call them “double zeroes”. What’s a double zero? It refers to the serial number. The first digit on a Les Paul is the year-a 58 is “8”, a 59 is “9” and a 60 is “0”. That’s the first zero. The second set of digits is the numerical order within that year. The first one made in 1960 would be (I believe) 0 0100. The last “double zero” would be (theoretically) 0 0999. I bring this up for a couple of reasons. First, I own one. Secondly, they are very desirable guitars-nearly as desirable as a 59 but not quite. Why is that? Well, it’s not dissimilar to a 60 ES-335 with a 59 factory order number and 59 features. A “double zero” was probably built in late 1959 and given a 60 serial number in January or maybe February. While I haven’t owned a whole lot of Les Paul bursts, I’ve had a few-many of them from 1960. The necks on those were slim and that is a factor in the desirability of both a LP and an ES. Bigger necks are simply more popular although that can change over time. That seems to be a very big factor here…”double zeroes” often have big necks.

I went to the burst serial site to see how many double zeroes are accounted for and I found 55 (not including a couple of re-stamped serials). I don’t know if all of them have all of the 59 features but they all seem to have the bonnet knobs of a 59. I can’t determine neck shape from the photos but I understand that many have the big 59 neck. Plenty of them have double white PAFs which was kind of a surprise because double whites aren’t common on 60 335’s (but they are on 345’s and 355’s). Well, it seems reasonable that these somewhat rare guitars should command some kind of recognition especially given the price differential that has emerged between a 59 and a 60. I believe we (meaning guitar aficionadoes) have become a little too obsessed with model years. The price differential between a collector grade 59 and 60 ES-335 can be $30,000 (or nearly 30%). The price differential between a 59 burst and a 60 burst can be $100K or more, also approaching 30%. It shouldn’t be, in my opinion. I’m tempted to start buying up all of the early 60 335’s with the bigger neck profile and waiting for the market to catch on. It appears that the Les Paul folks have started to do this simply by creating the term double zero. This is a good thing. 335 folks will eventually catch on, most likely when 59’s simply are out of reach.

This is Les Paul serial number 0 0119. It is the third lowest 60 serial number known on the burst serial site. I bought this guitar recently and it has the big 59 neck, double white PAFs, mid 59 pots, a very pretty top and is, essentially everything I would want in a burst except for a 59 serial number. A 59 like this one would be over $500,000 today. So why is this nearly $100K less?

It’s 1959. I’m seven years old. Cars have huge fins and the Yankees, after winning pennants in 55, 56, 57 and 58 stunk up the place in 59 finishing in third place. Lots of news in 59 but, as a seven year old, who cares. In music, Elvis is a hunka hunka burnin’ love, Dion is a teenager in love and a rodent named Alvin was outselling them all (12 million sold). Gibson has been making guitars for around 57 years. Some might say it was downhill from there, especially for electrics.

I love 59 Gibsons. I play one (a 345). I’ve owned dozens of ES guitars from every year from 58 to 68. Most are good, some are great and a few are nearly magical. If I am judging years based on how many magical ones I’ve owned, 59 comes out on top. The three best I’ve ever had were all 59’s. Out of my top twenty, 15 or so are 59’s. You might ask, “what makes a 59 so different from a 58 or a 60 or a 64?-all good years. And “are all 59’s the same?” Good questions. Not so easy answers.

A few observations…guitars aren’t automobiles. In the fifties, cars were redesigned every year. As a kid, I couldn’t wait to see the new models. The local newspaper would publish a photo of the latest car to be released to the public. My Dad would take me and my brothers around to the local dealers on a Saturday, usually in October, to see the new models. It was a day to look forward to. My Dad, being a locally prominent doctor, was probably seen as a hot prospect so we were treated very well by the dealers. Guitars didn’t really have model years. That’s something we collectors and players assigned to them as we are a species that needs narrow definitions and parameters. Gibson made changes to a model when it was necessary-not based on model years. A late 58 is exactly the same as an early 59. A late 59 is not the same as an early 59 and an early 60 is the same as a late 59. There were often some big changes made during a given year-some practical, some cosmetic some baffling.

I can make a strong argument for late 58 ES guitars being the best but if we’re looking at the guitars from a single year on average, the best have to be 59. The thin top of the 58 is a compelling argument for 58’s but the small frets and the shallow neck angle kind of negate that. And there are thin top 59’s with a good neck angle and big frets -the best of the best, in my opinion. Gibson changed the neck profile many, many times through the life of the instrument but two of the best neck carves were from 59…the early one is huge up to .94″ at the first fret but more typically .88″. The twelfth fret measurement is a full inch or more. The late 59 “transitional” neck is also very desirable at around .85″ at the first and .95″ at the 12th. That neck continued well into 1960 so you could probably make an argument for early to mid 60 335’s being up there as well. After that though, the neck got very slim and, for most folks, too thin. Not only is it uncomfortable for many players but that “blade” neck is prone to truss rod cracks and back bows. It stayed thin until late 63 with only slight changes in 62 and early 63. By late 63, it was still fairly thin at the first fret but shoulder had increased and the taper to the 12th fret was considerable-back to an inch or more. Lots of players find the 64 neck to be the best ever.

Then, we can look at the pickups. a 59 will always have long magnet PAFs and that’s pretty much enough said. 58’s had them as well as did most 335’s from 1960. Short magnet PAFs and early patents (at least through 64) were great pickups as well and are much more consistent than long magnet PAFs. I’ve said, more than once, that the average short magnet PAF is as good or better than the average long magnet but the best long magnet PAF is better than anything.

Here’s something that perhaps you didn’t know…the body depth of the 335 goes through a number of changes. In 58 and 59, the average body depth is just over 1.6″ (some early 355’s are actually less than 1.6″). By 1964, the average body depth had increased to 1.77″ or so. That’s a big change. I don’t think it affects anything tone-wise but it makes for a somewhat heavier guitar.

Many other components were changed during the “golden years” but I don’t think they had much of an effect on tone or playability. Tuners went from single ring to double ring and from single line to double line. No real difference. The bridge went from no wire to wire in 63. That’s an improvement when you break a string and the saddle doesn’t go flying across the stage but there is no improvement otherwise. Knobs changed, fret markers changed, body shape changed but these were all cosmetic changes. Perhaps the biggest (and dumbest) change was the nut width. In 65, it went from 1 11/16″ to 1 5/8″ to 1 9/16″. That’s the main reason 65’s are so much less expensive than 64’s. The other dumb (in my opinion) change was the change from the stop tailpiece to the trapeze, also in 65. That was strictly a cheaper way to build the guitar and it didn’t help anything but that. 65 to 68 ES-335’s could have been great guitars if those two changes hadn’t occurred. Instead, they are a lower cost alternative that has, arguably, compromised playability.

So, taking all the features into consideration and trying to define a single year with the best 335’s, I come to the conclusion that it has to be 59. If all 58’s were like the late ones, it would be a tossup but early 58’s simply don’t play as well as the average 59 because of the neck angle. A good argument can be made for 64’s. An excellent year with consistently great pickups. But a 59 might have those absolutely magical long magnet PAFs which weren’t available in 1964. It is no wonder that the price of a 59 has broken away from the pack. I don’t think they will catch the venerable 59 Les Paul but the gap is closing for sure. There is a way to get yourself a 59 and not pay the huge premium that 59 ES-335’s command. Buy a 59 ES-345 or, better yet, a mono 59 ES-355. They are currently selling for less than half the price of a 335 but you’ll have to deal with the stereo circuit and Varitone in the 345 and the Bigsby on a 355.

Uncle Harry has passed away and he left his old Gibson with no explanation of what it’s worth. Aunt Harriet is at her wits end. What should she do?

This happens a lot. Grandpa or Uncle Harry passes away and the guitar that he cherished since 1966 is now an orphan. Aunt Harriet has no idea what to do with it and she has no idea what it’s worth but she thinks it’s worth a lot. At least that’s what Uncle Harry kept telling her every time he bought an expensive guitar. “It’ll be worth a fortune in twenty years…” and Aunt Harriet bought it hook line and you know the rest. But now she actually has to figure out what to do with the old thing so she does a little research.

The brand on the part where the tuners are says Gibson. The label inside says ES-335 guitar so she knows it’s a guitar (OK, she knew that already) and it appears that the model number is ES-335 so she taps into the Google machine with “Gibson ES-335”. Unfortunately, my site doesn’t come up at the top of the page so she has to go through a lot of new dealers and Gibson’s own site. Those are all new ones and she needs to know about the old ones. Finally she gets to one of many vintage dealers and there are ES-335’s for sale for as much as $100,000. But there are others for as little as $5000. What is Aunt Harriet going to do? Well, she’s probably going to call her guitar player nephew Larry who will do everything he can to get the guitar for himself. What follows is a tutorial for Aunt Harriet.

Look at the label. There should be serial number. Gibson reused them over and over again but it will get you started. There are chart of serial numbers available here. Find the serial number that corresponds to the one on either the label or the back of the doohickey with the tuning keys (called the headstock). If you know Uncle Harry bought it in the 50’s or 60’s before the middle of 61, then the serial number will start with the letter A. After that it will be all numbers. You’ll find as many as four years with the same serial number and if it’s from the 70’s, it’s even worse. If there’s just one year that corresponds to the number, then you’re lucky. You now know the year of the guitar and you can go to any dealer site (or Reverb or Gbase.com) and see what others are asking for the same year guitar. Most folks ask more than the guitar is worth so expect to sell it for less than the highest price you find online. If there are multiple years with your serial number, you will have to do a lot more research to ascertain the year.

There are simple things you can do get a better handle on the year a 335 was made. First, what color is the label. If it’s orange or possibly faded to yellow, then it was made between 1958 (for a 335) and 1970. After mid 1970, the labels are purple and black (Norlin). By 81 or so, they are white. After that, I don’t know because I’m a vintage dealer and I don’t see a lot from the 90’s and later. They’ve gone back to the old style orange labels but the serialization is different. Next, look at the markers on the fingerboard (where the strings are). Are they little dots or little blocks? Dots mean 1958-early 1962. Blocks mean mid 62 to 80. Dots again from 81 to today. Blocks again on 60’s reissues done (I think) in the 90’s and 2000’s. There are a dozen other things that will tell you the year but it can be pretty arcane. I would suggest, Aunt Harriet, that you consult with a vintage dealer with a good reputation and find out what you have. Don’t take his offer as gospel (or even fair). Once you know the year, you can look online at sites like Reverb.com or Gbase.com to see what others are asking.

Big, big asterisk on that last sentence. Folks selling their guitars on sites like those mentioned often (not always but often) ask crazy high prices so before you go off thinking Uncle Harry’s treasure is worth $120K, look at a number of similar guitars and maybe get your hands on a recent price guide. They are often low but they are also more realistic than some of the asking prices, especially on Reverb (Gbase is largely dealers so, believe it or not, they tend to be more in line with the real value). If you have a 335, 345 or 355, you can always get in touch with me (and I’ll encourage you to do your homework) at okguitars@gmail.com. I’ll never ask “what do you want for it?” I’ll always make an offer based on what you have and what I think I can sell it for.

This is a label from late 1960. Note the A prefix. If the llabel looks like this and doesn’t have the A, then it’s from 61 to as late as 1970. Then, in the 2000’s, they used a nearly identical label (with the prefix) for some Custom Shop models

Gibson used this label from mid 1970 through 1980 (and maybe a few in 81). These are less valuable than the earlier ones but can still be worth thousands (but not tens of thousands)

By 1981, it looks like this. This is from 1983. You can tell by taking the first number and the fourth from the last number. They change again in the 90’s and 2000’s but the serial number scheme stays (mostly) the same.

It’s been a bit of a rough patch for 345’s since they surged big time during Covid. They have dropped back and the market is at a bit of a stand off. 59’s are strong but the rest seem to sit unless really well priced.

The second part of my year ender generally deals with 345’s and 355’s and this year is no different. Last year it almost looked like 345’s were going to catch up to 335’s in value. They surged ahead and sold like there was no tomorrow. And that may have been the impetus-during Covid, folks might have felt like there was no tomorrow and if there was, it didn’t look all that good. No tomorrow? Better buy stuff that makes you happy today. I think that’s what happened.

It couldn’t last. These guitars were bound to hit resistance and, sure enough, they did. Those sellers on Reverb who think they are going to get $40,000 for a 1960 or 61 ES-345 are going to be disappointed. I don’t think they will get even $25,000 and probably not even that. During Covid, I sold a 59 for $40K. That is the highest I’ve ever gotten for a non blonde or black 345 and that was a pre first rack prototype. The good news is that 345’s are, once again, a relative bargain. Most folks convert to 335 and never look back. It’s such a popular mod that it doesn’t diminish the value at all (especially if the original stereo harness and Varitone are included). There are very few mods to vintage guitars that don’t hurt the value. I think a 60-64 ES-345 in the high teens or low 20’s is a good buy. Keep your eyes open. Later ones have settled a bit as well but, as you all know, I don’t pay a lot of attention to 65-69 and I pay no attention at all to the 70’s.

Stereo 355’s didn’t really run up like the 345’s did during Covid. Probably because they all have a vibrato of some sort and that makes for a less desirable (or at least less popular) model. Big neck 59’s are rare (they went to the slimmer neck mid year in 59) and still can command a premium and stop tails are so rare, it’s hard to quantify the price trend. If yu want a stop tail, prepare to pay what the seller wants or wait a long time for another. I only know of about a dozen to 15 of them from 58-64. Bigsby versions always command a fair bit more than sideways (great for stop tail conversions) or Maestros. 99% of them are red so any color other than red is going to cost you some big dollars (especially black or blonde).

Mono 355’s have become kind of rare. I used to see a few dozen come up for sale every year but lately, they seem to be the Bigfoot of the guitar world. Today, there are just three for sale that I can find. 59’s are, as usual leading the charge. A mono 59 can command $40K if it’s clean. And that makes sense given what a 59 335 is selling for (as much as $90K for a collector grade sunburst). I’m not sure anybody is getting $90K but I know of at least two in the mid 80K range. If you don’t mind playing a guitar with a Bigsby, mono 355’s are a great choice. It’s just a fancy 335-the fancy bits used to double the price back in the day. Now they nearly cut it in half. The bargain 355-mono or stereo-are the 61-64’s. And look closely at 65’s and even some 66’s. There are wide nut versions out there from those years.

The market hasn’t really acknowledged that the “Covid Surge” is over. Folks have a hard time accepting a flattened or declining market. Most of it just leveled off but 345’s have softened and the sooner the seller acknowledge that, the sooner they will start selling again and maybe even start to run back up. They can’t appreciate of they sit on the market for months at inflated asking prices. The over all vintage market has picked up considerably after a very slow Summer, Fall and Holiday season. But January was excellent and February has shaped up pretty well too.

Clean, mono 355’s have gotten kind of scarce and the prices are quite strong for them, especially early 59’s. This one is a 60 and sold for a very high price because it was virtually brand freaking new.

2023 is the year that sunburst big neck 59’s broke $80,000. They have become so hard to find that they haven’t rolled back like the rest of the 335’s. It’s also the year that two more red 59’s turned up (I bought both of them). They both sold well into six figures (and were both Bigsby’s)

I know the folks who have posted their 335’s to sell on Reverb haven’t gotten the message yet but it will sink in eventually, I hope. After the nearly breathtaking appreciation that occurred during Covid, the 335 market has dropped back a bit. A rather sizable number of sellers seem to think that, because the market ran up 20% or more during Covid, that it would continue to do so pretty much forever. It doesn’t work that way. Guitars are subject to economic fluctuations just like the stock market, the housing market and even the food prices at your local Stop and Shop. To make matters even more complicated, some years have dropped back more than others.

Predictably (in a market that is now pretty unpredictable), 59’s led the way up with collector/museum grade sunbursts selling very quickly at over $80,000. But for that money, it had better be a 9+, preferably with a thin top and double whites. It has gotten so hard to find 59’s that they have been completely unaffected by the recent softening of 335 prices. An average 59 with perhaps changed tuners might be in the $65K-$70K range. A Bigsby or ex-Bigsby, around the same range. Late 58’s are still strong in the mid $70’s for clean ones but early 58’s are a tough sell. Maybe the huge price realized on Mark Knopfler’s blonde unbound 58 will goose the price a bit.

That brings us to 60 and 61 (and early 62 dots). I can’t explain why they have fallen back as much as they have-maybe because they ran up very quickly into unheard of prices. At their peak, folks were asking $65K or more for a stop tail sunburst 60. I had a few over the past year and they didn’t sell anywhere near that. I expect the price to settle in the $45K to $50K range for clean ones. 61’s are even worse. 61’s were stuck in the $25K range for a very long time but shot up to over $40K or more during Covid. Good luck getting anywhere near that right now. A clean stop tail 61 is a mid $30K guitar again with some nice examples dropping back into the high $20’s. Look out for the truss rod stress crack on 61’s. About 20 to 30% of them have it. It’s not like a cracked headstock as there is little stress down the middle of the back of the neck but stabilizing it is still a good idea. Knock off at least $5K for it but don’t necessarily reject them out of hand. Properly repaired, it should never be a problem unless you overtighten the truss rod. 61’s have always been the “bargain” dot neck and I think that $25K for a stop tail PAF 335 with some issues is a pretty good deal. Just be aware that the oh so slim neck is fragile. 62 dots are fairly rare but follow the 61 price wise unless equipped with pat #’s rather than PAFs.

That brings us to block necks from 62 to 64. These ran up just like the dots to never before seen prices during Covid. I never thought I’d see a $40,000 1964 but that’s about where they peaked. I didn’t get $40K for one but I got close for a near mint stop tail in red (yes, reds and sunbursts are worth the same but reds are easier to sell). A clean stop tail 64 (as well as a pat# equipped 63) should now be selling in the $28,000 to $30,000 range. If PAFs (rare for a 64), add $4,000 or so. Bigsby’s are still a 15% to 20% deduction if they are the correct B7. Same goes for stop tails with the “snake bite” holes from the B7. So, what about 62’s? 62’s follow their own set of rules because there is a lot of variation in them. You have blade necks and medium necks. You have dots and blocks. You have PAFs, patent #’s and one of each. I would look for a medium (.82 and .92 depth) neck with PAFs. That neck profile will almost certainly be a block neck. The dots are usually slim like a 61. A medium neck 62 with PAFs might cost you $32K-$34K if it’s a 9 or better with no issues. It will also probably be a great guitar. 62 is the sleeper year. They can be right up there with the best of the dot necks.

This post is always a bit of a loose guideline because the market changes quickly and there are always examples that are either stunningly clean that command a premium or stunningly worn or modded that drive the prices way down. If you see a 335 that you like,. do some comparison shopping. In a falling or softening market, look at the dealer prices. Dealers usually catch on to price changes a lot faster than individual sellers. I’ll also add, as a caution, that you should look at every part with a critical eye. I’ve said this about a zillion times…fully 95% of the 58 to 64 ES guitars I buy have an undisclosed issue (that I always fix, if possible and always disclose). In general, it’s not that folks are dishonest, it’s that they don’t know what correct parts look like. With a 58 to 64 nickel stop tailpiece selling for $3000, it’s no wonder they get scavenged. Do your homework and feel free to shoot me an email and ask what I think. I’m always happy to help you get the 335 you want even if you buy it from someone other than me.

64’s (especially red ones) briefly got into the $40,000 range during Covid but have dropped back into the lower to mid $30’s if it’s a 9 condition or better with no issues at all. It’s still (along with a 59 sunburst) the easiest ES-335 to sell.

A group of Rockers surround (and probably harass) a lone Mod. It could get pretty ugly and the adults in the UK at the time were very worried.

If you are over the age of, say, 65, you might recall two British entities called Mods and Rockers. Apparently the youth of the UK split into two easily definable groups…Mods and Rockers. Both groups could be considered hipsters but neither thought the other was and thus they clashed. Sometimes with violent results. Mods wore the latest Carnaby Street fashions and rode around on little motor scooters. They were usually middle class. Rockers were leather jacketed greaser types who were mostly working class. The Rockers rode big Triumphs and BSAs. They thought Mods were effete snobs. The Mods thought the Rockers were low class and dirty thugs with no taste in anything. It was a moral dilemma in mid 60’s Britain but hardly touched us here in the USA. All this history just so I can have a clever title for this post which has nothing to do with Mods and Rockers. Ringo (yes, that Ringo) was asked (in Hard Day’s Night)…”are you a Mod or a Rocker?” His answer? “I’m a Mocker.” Clever, these Beatles.

I’m actually writing about modifications done to ES guitars. Mods for rockers…get it? Thought so. Most mods are ill advised, especially on vintage guitars as they almost always lower the value. Adding a mini switch for a coil tap or phase is a bad idea. In fact, just about anything that leaves visible holes in the guitar is going to diminish the value. Want to use an aftermarket bridge? Great. Use one that fits without modifying the bridge posts. If you want to add a Bigsby to your 64 stop tail 335, you are asking for a sizable decline in its value-as much as 25%. A better idea would be to sell the stop tail and buy a 335 with a Bigsby already installed. Adding a Bigsby is not a bad mod (if you use a Bigsby) but it’s bad economics. That leads me to my larger point. There are certain mods that are good for the guitar and/or the player. All of them will diminish the value but they are worth looking for.

The most popular is adding a stop tail to a trapeze tailpiece ES. It requires two big holes in the top of your guitar and leaves four holes at the end pin. That hurts the value. But if somebody else has already done the mod (and did it right), it’s worth seeking out. It will make the guitar better and it will lower the price. Everybody’s happy, right? Yes and no. If the tailpiece is installed in the wrong location, it is glaring. So make sure you get it right. Another useful (and common) mod is moving the bridge back slightly (toward the tailpiece). 50’s and 60’s ES guitars shipped with a wound G string (plain G strings didn’t even exist) and intonated just fine. Once plain G strings became the norm, ES guitars (and most other Gibsons) ran into an intonation problem. To get the G string to intonate properly, you had to reverse the saddle and move it all the way back in its slot. If you used 10’s or 11’s, that was fine but if you wanted to use lighter guage strings, you simply ran out of room and your G string was always sharp at the upper frets. The easy fix was to move the bridge posts back about 1/8″. Fortunately, the holes from the original posts were hidden under the thumbwheels. Intonation was no longer a problem but you just dropped the value of your guitar by perhaps $1000 to even $2000.

Modding a vintage 335 doesn’t happen much these days. Most of the mods you see were done years and years ago before 335’s were worth much. If you’re going to put a stoptail on your Bigsby 335, for the love of god, put it in the right location. Unless you’re Larry Carlton, this just looks wrong. This one is off by more than an inch. Even if it’s off by 1/8″, it will look odd.

So, if you want to use 9’s on your 335, flip the G saddle around and see where you are intonation wise. If you can’t get it right, you might consider finding a 335 (345 or 355) that has already had it done. That way, it’s priced in and you haven’t diminished the value of a collectible vintage guitar.

This 59 335, once owned by Mike Landau had its bridge moved back to improve intonation. Most times, folks just drill new holes. For some reason Mike’s luthier filled the original holes before drilling the new ones. Not usually necessary.